Relationships

I am indebted to my friend and colleague Julie for this post.  This June, Julie will have completed 4 ½ years teaching in Huê, and will be going home for some new adventures in life.  She speaks fluent Vietnamese and therefore has a window into the culture I don’t have.

When I say the Vietnamese culture is relationship-based, I’m not kidding.  Westerners are so task-oriented, we keep “relationships” as a separate part of our lives.  To the Vietnamese, relationships are central.  To Americans, personal relationships get in the way of business.  To the Vietnamese, they don’t know how to do business unless it is within a relationship.   As an illustration, here is a conversation Julie had with a stall-owner at the local market – a few hours after the Mystery Guest Blogger had been there.

Julie:  Hello older sister!  How's your health?

Grocer: Hello younger sister.  I'm fine, and you?

Julie: Good.

Grocer:  Aren't you cold?  You aren't wearing a jacket.

Julie:  No, I'm okay because I get warm pedaling my bike.

Grocer:  What would you like?

Julie:  Two kilos of apples.

Grocer:  Why do you want so many?

Julie:  My friend didn't buy enough when she came here this morning. We're going to make a special American pie for a holiday we're celebrating today called Thanksgiving.

Grocer:  That American was your friend?  Ohh, I'm so sorry!  I didn't  know.  I charged her so much!  I shouldn't have done that.  I promise I will give her a good price next time.  I'm so sorry.  (As she grabs onto Julie and buries her face in her sleeve)

Julie:  It's okay, don't worry about it.  How much do I owe you?

Grocer:  25,000 Vietnamese Dong. (less than $2)

Julie:  Thanks older sister.

Grocer:  Goodbye.

You’re wondering “What’s this ‘older sister’ stuff?”  The answer is your first clue into how important relationships are in Việt Nam.

Personal pronouns in the Vietnamese language are based on how old the other person is in relation to you.  In this case, Julie is younger than the grocer, therefore she uses the word chi when addressing the grocer. She called Julie em, an affectionate diminutive used when talking to younger people – as well as a cozy word a boy says to his girlfriend.

Put another way, there is no way to say “how are you today” simply because there is no word for you.  To talk to another person, you must have a relationship, even if it is nothing more than knowing whether the other person is older than you.

Of course, the Grocer is referring to the MGB when she spoke of  “That American.”   Foreigners often think the Vietnamese are always out to rip them off.  Not so – they trade on the basis of relationships.  Julie has taken the time to know the grocer, and is treated accordingly.  The next time the MGB goes there, she too will be treated like a friend.

Now imagine that you are at the Đông Ba market  and you're going into a new shop where you don't know the seller.  You've chosen what you want to buy and you go to the counter to buy it.  This is how the conversation is likely to transpire:

Julie:  Hello.

Seller:  Hello. Where are you from? (As she takes Julie's goods to  decide the price)

Julie:  America.

Seller:  How old are you?

Julie:  27.

Seller:  Do you have a family yet?

Julie:  Not yet.

Seller:  Do you have a boyfriend yet?

Julie:  Yes.

Seller:  When will you get married?

Julie:  I don't know yet, maybe next year.

Seller:  You speak Vietnamese very well...(putting Julie's goods in a plastic bag) 9,000 Vietnamese Đông.

Julie:  (handing the seller the money and taking the bag) Thank you.

Seller:  What do you do here?

Julie:  I teach English at the University.

Seller:  Do you teach any extra classes out of your home?

Julie:  No, I'm sorry I don't.

Seller:  If you open a class, I want to join.  Can you teach me?  I really want to learn English.

Julie:  I'm sorry, I don't have extra time to teach extra students. See you later.

Can you imagine having a conversation like that the next time you go to Home Depot or Wal-Mart?  You will be lucky if the clerk looks at you, much less engages you in conversation.  Most likely, you would be very offended to have someone ask your marital status.  What Julie does not say is that prior to her meeting her boyfriend, people would usually admonish her to find a boyfriend, get married, and have children.  If the clerk at Wal-Mart told you to get married, you’d probably report her to the manager. 

Can you imagine a clerk at your local supermarket asking you why you need so many apples? 
Can you imagine prices being charged according to whether you know somebody?
Can you imagine strangers asking about your personal life?

Can you imagine living a life built on relationships?

Comments

[robert]

I understand this quite well, being limited in my speaking and understanding the viet namese language you and mess up on saying chi when you should say em or ba. As for being ask questions, don't be surprise if the owner of the shop or a member try out their english on you and ask questions. I feel welcome where ever I went, once they realize I was a artist and being large in size I got to be known as the large artist. Giving away some art to the local help reduce my cost of staying, eating and shopping. Don't be surprise to be ask to draw something for free. Just remember to be polite enough, to say no to doing more freebee. once they seem to know you they more they want to help you

[Tom Murray]

The topic of relationships is an intersting one. I've done extensive research on the topic with a focus on teaching and learning. Even though Americans seem to value relationships less and less, relationships are key to the learning process in American schools. Those teachers who take the time to get to know their students, really know their studnets in school and out, and extend that to high quality classroom guests find that their students' academnic abilities increase by leaps and bounds (not a research term).

There is also a term called cultural capital. It's sort of a measure how much people talk or relate to each other. Cultural capital in the USA is diminishing. Things like the Knights of Columbus or the Shriners have only older members. Youth are not joining these groups or any group for that matter. The old neighborhood bar where fiends joined together for a casual drink are gobbled up by chains where they want to move custoomers in and out quickly. Many neighbors in the USA really don't know each others names. Kids no longer roam neighborhoods as parents feel more secure with the kids in their home where they are safe.

After all of this there is a reason why Americans love the Vietnamese culture and people. Relationships are everything in life and the Vietnamese celebrate this every day.

Tom Murray -
waiting to return to Hue this summer

[Triet]

It's all so true. I don't know much about "cultural capital," but it sounds true, because of my experiences. In America they say "it's all about who you know, not what you know." In Vietnam, or with the Vietnamese, it definitely is this way--and that's a great thing because not only do you get your apples cheaper, but you can make friends for life.

[layered]

I think I understand the value of relationships among the people in a town since I grew up in a small American town where everyone knew each other and asked about each other in the stores. Nevertheless, the prices did not adjust based on these relationships, although credit might have been extended based on them.

I am having trouble, though, figuring out how to build relationships for projects where contracts usually are the norm in America. Based on our development experience in Việt Nam so far, several months of relationship building has not resulted in agreements, and others with relationships have superseded ours. So we have a lot to learn, yet, and Doug has reminded me several times that everything takes longer in Việt Nam, so patience is the primary quality to have.

I don't agree with Mr. Murray about cultural capital diminishing in America -- my two daughters have had as much or more contact with friends or new relationships as I had in traditional organizations while growing up. Theirs is both online (myspace.com or friendster) as well as a very active social life that sometimes involves bars or clubs, but more often involves shopping or restaurants. Perhaps we baby boomers have represented a dip in cultural capital between our parents organizations and our kids' more personal relationships.

[layered]

I was just rethinking Mr. Murray's comments, and realized that he may be right about the decline in the "capital" part of cultural capital. Whereas my father and fellow Lions and Shriners and Masons probably conducted a fair amount of business based on those relationships, I put my time instead into church groups where I neither expected nor received return business. Meanwhile, my kids don't seem to have any idea or desire of a business payoff to their extensive personal relationships.

[Tom Murray]

This idea of relationships and cultural capital is a very interesting one. My specific knowledge is more in the area of education, but I've been intrigued by how much Americans and Europeans love the Vietnamese way of life contrasted with how Vietnam in the big cities like HoChiMinh City seem so eager to westernize. Living in HCMC you see billboards for snack foods right next to everyday people who eat fruit, vegetables and rice and are very healthy. You see a Hyatt or Hilton consuming an entire city block while Vietnamese lady vendors squat on the street feeding the workers. You can even see old Vietnamese men carrying bamboo ladders around a sophisticated construction site. The mix of old and new is everywhere.

Last summer I lived with Vietnamese 24/7 for 30 days. TV and radio were replaced with conversation. We discussed our lives, our families and our philosophy of life. We went to orphanages and talked about helping others. We talked about riding the motorcycles and laughed about me squeezing my friend as he made one of his famous U-turns in heavy traffic. We talked about the Vietnamese government today both good and bad. We talked about this "Greatest Generation" of young Vietnamese born since 1975 and their gift of freedom to their nation. Conversation filled my non-work hours. Electronics were missing almost completely.

A quick study of the urban, inner-city schools finds students with behavior problems just like in US inner-city schools. Is this a sign that the negatives of western life are coming faster than the positives? Behavior problems do not exist in the Vietnamese countryside schools.

Westerners flock to Vietnam for the beauty of its people, the simple family oriented life. Vietnamese in the big cities seem to want the western life, but how much of their soul will they sacrifice to attain the trappings of the western world? Hopefully not very much.

Tom Murray

[Virtual-Doug]

Wow! This one set off a good discussion.

Robert Putnam wrote an excellent book titled "Bowling Alone" a few years ago about the topic of community. I recommend it highly. Putnam points the finger at television, and I tend to agree - with some reservations.

But, as Marc Prensky puts it, people our age are also digital immigrants. We haven't quite grasped the fullness of the redefinition of "community" the Internet has brought about, despite our use of suhc toys as blogs. Community is no longer defined by geography, but by interest.

Layered has a point about relationship building as so far as business is concerned in Viet Nam. I think it is difficult for North Americans to understand the deep fact that only Canada, the US, and Australia are truly immigrant nations. We are used to and comfortable with dufferent ethnicities. No so the Vietnamese (or most other groups in the world, for that matter.) I can live in Viet Nam for the rest of my life, but I will never be more than an Acceptable Outsider. In fact, I cannot become a citizen of Viet Nam - - because I am not ethnically Vietnamese.

Tom - I truly hope you can live in Viet Nam in the future - there is so much more to absorb that can't be found in 30 days. Triet - you are in the best position of all - your feet are in both worlds.

[D. Nguyen]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence! You are going to be absorbed by the mainstream of the day. You "foreigners" are fascinated because VN's mainstream goes against the grain/grooves of your existence. You feel the strange sensation, but it'll be dull soon enough.

I've lived (no, i was anything but a tourist) in 4 different countries (3 of them have different distinctive ways of life.) I had the same sensation everytime... And, I think ppl are basically the same anywhere. What makes them different is in the power of the land they dwell on. This is a long and complicated topic to jump in.

Layered, the missing ingredient in your contract is "kick-back" VN is the most corrupted country on this planet. Try to grease the right palms next time.

Virtual Doug, Viets are a very acceptable bunch. Really! espescially the southerners. Prove your worth and they are you brothers for life. I don't want to get into the nuance of the Viet's relationship but it's all in these 2 words - "Ti`nh" va "Nghi~a". You may find the english equivalent for "Ti`nh" but "Nghi~a" is more difficult to translate, it is a condensation of the many Eastern's philosophies/religions/belief/way of life.

[Tom Murray]

I would love to here more about "The Power of the Land".

[Triet]

Maybe I'm in a good postion, but maybe not. When the topic shifts to straddling two worlds, you can have the best of both, but you often get the worst of both too. Look at Vietnamese--Viet Kieu are considered different thatn Viet, because they are "outsiders" even though they are ethnically Vietnamese. Caucasians who marry Vietnamese men/women also get a "begrudging acceptance" as I will call it for lack of a better term. He/She is accepted as part of the family, but not really expected to be one of the boys/girls. It's an odd feeling.

That being said, I definitely feel that the relationship structure in Vietnam is not a bad thing (racial ethnocentrism is another topic). Sometimes, from a foreigner's perspective it may be hard to navigate, but once you know what's going on, you will realize that the people can be so real.

Ultimately, my point is this: I agree totally that community in America is defined by interest. I think it always has. In school you associate with people that believe the same as you, like the same things as you, etc. Television has probably induced more people to be lazy bums and not go out of the house, but the internet has broadened our small groups. Now, I, who might only have been able to talk about the great Vietnamese culture and relationship structure with my wife, can talk about it with people that share my interest but live all over the world. That's great cultural capital to me!